A Gardeners Forum Forums General Discussion Landscape trials and triumphs Completely lost...need a blueprint ;-)

My wife and I are again trying to figure out what the heck to do with our backyard. And while we could try to put together a few things, I think it might be best to see if any of you could lend us some advice. We actually started down the “we’ll try to figure it out” path, and it didn’t go so well. Here’s the scoop….

Our fenced backyard is roughly 40’ x 40’ (give or take). Grass was having a hard time growing underneath the deck, so last year we added a nice patio. (We’re still working on getting the grass to re-grow out in the yard after all that work.) We just don’t know where to go from here. (If any of the following gets confusing, there’s a link to photos at the end that might help.)

We have some great challenges.
1) A small area between the patio and fence, which is elevated above the patio on one end and slopes down to even with the patio as it extends to meet the yard.
2) A telephone ‘box’ in one rear corner.
3) Cable and electric ‘boxes’ in the other rear corner.
4) The yard is sloped (luckily away form the house, toward the rear of the yard).
5) Two gates in the fence.
6) Two large dogs who run through the yard and ‘do their business’ back there.
7) It’s all full- to part-sun (all gets sun, amount differs in certain areas).
8) Small yard.
9) We are clueless as to what we’re doing.

I originally thought about having an area all the way around the interior of the fence mulched and with flowers/shrubs. My wife didn’t like that idea. And we’ve learned since that when it’s wet outside, mulch can stick to the dogs’ paws. We agreed to put down mulch along the front edge of the patio area that is under the deck (the patio is under the deck, the mulch bed part isn’t), and use brick pavers as the edging. This works okay, but again mulch and dogs aren’t great. If we keep it, we’ll need to plant something in it as well.

We’ve also transplanted three holly bushes from our front yard, and I bought another (much smaller and different type) to try to block the electric box. We also have a lilac bush (my wife’s favorite) just to the left of the back center fence gate. Obviously, these could be moved or discarded (though I think the lilac will stay somewhere).

Basically, what the heck should we do back there? All we want is for it to look spectacular, be easy to take care of (a little watering and plucking out some weeds), and of course be cheap. Is that too much to ask for? ;)

For those of you who might enjoy this and would want to help us plan, we’d love to hear your advice. Do you have any ideas? Should we use pea gravel instead of mulch? What should we use as edging? Should I put pea gravel down over the entire back yard so I don’t have to mow any more? What plants should we plant: perennials, shrubs, a tree or two? And where should we put them? We don’t mind if it’s things we order (e.g. Springhill Nursery) or buy at a local shop.

I know many would say a lot of this is personal taste, but when we look through a magazine, we like everything. As long as it isn’t way too ‘out there,’ chances are we’ll like it.

All I want is a blueprint…is that too much to ask for? ;)

Here’s a link to some photos of what’s out there now.
http://public.fotki.com/dkitchen/backyard-photos/?cmd=fs_slideshow

Any help is GREATLY appreciated. We're in zone 6.

Best,
David

welcome to our brand-shiny-new forum, david!!

let me take a look at your pics and i'll need to re-read your post again and then i'll be back...

the new forum just opened up and not everyone is on here yet, so, please give people a chance to navigate here and get used to things here (it's a lot different than the old forum).

we've got some REALLY creative people here and i KNOW they'll all have some great ideas for your space!!

k. i'm off to look at your pics!!

Hi David, (one of my favorite names). Welcome. You have a very nice beginning. And I want to thank you for scooping before you took your pictures.
You need to get something happening in your mulched area just off your patio that will discourage the dogs from using it for a path way and tracking in the unwanted stuff and allow plants to thrive. A short picket fence or something with a beauty all it's own.
Try to choose a small patio friendly tree so it won't outgrow the dimensions of the yard. When you come to picking out trees. A dogwood or or a redbud tree could be kept small and give seasonal interest and still leave enough sun around to grow your lawn for the dogs.
You have actually made a good start and have the right ideas going for you. I like it.

k. looked at your pics and re-read your post.

first, don't let yourselves be overwhelmed and try to get it all done in one season!! gardens (and your own likes/dislikes) are always evolving and if you jump in too quickly with plant selections, you may, in a couple of years, be totally disastisfied.

no need to rush thing!! i've been working on my beds for 7 years and i've only, in the past 2, really gotten a clear idea of what i really want to do with them!

forget mulching if you've got the dogs. use groundcovers. there are plenty available that are perenial in your zone (same as mine, btw).

also, can you train the dogs to just go in one area? i know it'll take some doing if they're older than a year old (which i'm as suming they are). it'll be worth the hassle of it tho - from the cleaning it up aspect as well as protecting what you plant from damage from the urine/feces.

so, it's basically a full sun situation? except for the areas that are blocked by the fences?

you're in zone 6. what state? what kind of soil do you have - clay, sandy, etc?

do you have preferences for what you want? as in, bushes mostly, or a mix of bushes and plants/flowers? do you want blooms throughout the seasons? what about flower color? any preference? besides the lilac, what other plants would you like to include in your garden?

did you think about things like doing a water-feature? what about kids...will you need to have a spot for a swingset or other toys? what about doing a vegy garden? do you want to attract any particular birds or butterflies? or want to keep them away?

you've already said you want low maintence so that would mean things that are perennial - whether it's bushes, plants or flowers. which is basically what i've done...just this year i'm branching out into annuals...just a few for now.

the lilac bush, besides getting tall, will spread out over the years. just something to keep in mind as it sends out suckers so you need to be aware of that before you plant something right next to it. and you'll need to decide if where it is right now is really the best spot for it.

basically, for now, focus on getting the lawn reseeded and getting something in the area to the side that you've got the pavers around. the other areas to focus on right now are the two corners with the utilities.

decide if you want to just cover them up with things directly in front or if you want larger beds in front of those cover bushes.

actually, that might look nice! you could partition the two corners off (make them the same size for each corner) and have some higher reaching bushes directly in front of the equipment and then a bed in front of them with some shorter bushes and a mix of flowers - some perennial flowers as well as some that are bulbs.

i see you've got that one bed that extends to the back corner...i'd recommend doing the same on the other side. i'm kind of a stickler for symmetry tho!

and you could leave the back side of the yard with no beds at all..just have the grass go all the way out. with the two beds on the side and the corner bits done, you'll have an appearance of a longer yard.

i know i haven't really done anything but give you more to think about...we really need some basics, tho, if we're going to help you!!

oh, i have a couple of things i can send you (for a SASE since i doubt you've got anything to trade yet!!). i've got some purple coneflower seeds and some purple bearded iris. i've also got some vinca groundcover i could send you some starts of - again, it's a purple flower (i REALLY like purple! )

all are perennial. the iris blooms in spring and keeps the green foliage for the summer. the coneflower blooms later in the summer - has wonderful foliage beforehand and the seedheads look nice in the fall/winter (and supply food for the birds). the vinca is a nice groundcover - has nice deep green leaves all spring/summer/fall and blooms in late spring...sometimes it blooms again in the summer, too. all of them do best in full sun...they will all do okay in less than full-sun conditions, too so those spots where the fence blocks some of the light will be okay for them.

the coneflowers bloom the second year of growth. and they multiply nicely and can be split out after 3 years or so. the iris will multiply too...they should be split every 3-4 years. if they get too crowded you don't get as many blooms. i just split mine out last year (a few years behind when they should have been) and they bloomed again for me :) which was a nice surprise as they aren't the kind that re-bloom (there are some that do). i've plenty of extra and you're more then welcome to a couple of tubers!! the vinca i can send starter plants already rooted as i'm going to be working on that area this year - i'm putting in a retaining wall in that spot so i'll have to remove some of the vinca to do that.

actually, i have a question for you! i looked at those exact pavers to do this wall with...are they easy to work with??

k...lots of questions for you to answer :) i'm sure others will be along shortly with more questions and some input! and i know others will be willing to send you some things for a SASE, too!!

we do more than a few trades around here!! we've got a whole forum just for that!

if you're interesting in want i have available, pm me and we'll discuss it!

David,
I've had to work around my dogs too (3 large and 1 small). There are some things you could do that would enable you to have some pretty flowers without the dogs being able to stomp and dump all over them There is always the trusty whiskey barrel that can be planted with a mix of things. Something around the perimiter to trail over the edge with upright flowers in the center or perhaps just some petunias for the summer. And something else I've seen that I plan to put in my butterfly garden--you can get a large clay pot that's basically broken roughly in half, bury the open bottom part, fill with potting mix, compost, whatever, and plant some sort of flowers, ivy, whatever, in it. These two ideas will give just enough elevation to keep the dogs off. A birdbath would be beautiful standing in one of your gardens by the patio too. And everything doesn't have to be flowers--a few well-placed large rocks for a rock garden would look really neat too. And of course, large hanging plants (ferns, whatever you like) around your patio would look so cool and inviting. Just my 2 cents worth. Maybe there will be an idea or two you like. Good luck and post some pics for us when you get done (or mid-progress would be nice too).

To hide the phone box I would either use lattice or a trellis and grow a vine up it. Clematis, morning glory, ivy... Or, there are large fake hollow boulders you can get that go over whatever it is you're hiding. I like the holly bushes but they are a long time coming to actually be big enough to hide the box.
Weeping trees are nice for small yards, weeping chery are pretty.
The blue oval would be a good spot for a hedgerow of either vertically growing evergreens, or lilacs or rose of sharons.
The squareish garden you have pavers around would be nice full of Hollyhocks. I'm going for height to break up the starkness of the fence. An illusion of a thick 'forest' of gardens.An ornamental tree in the back corner. Soften the corners with rounded areas, fill with mulch, gravel or low non grass plants.
DO NOT USE COCOA MULCH!! It could make woofys sick.

WOW! Thanks for all the responses, and so quick! I almost don’t know where to start with responding to each of you, but I’ll start with THANK YOU!

Some more background – right now, no kids, but my wife tells me it’s in the plans. That would mean a swing set at some point, but since they’re not yet conceived, it will be many years before we need that.

I’m not as worried about the dogs. At our last house, we had one of those invisible fences, and I still have the collars and transmitter, so it’s possible to hook that back up and simply block them off from getting into any areas we want to keep them out of. They’re 7 years old, and we’ve talked about trying to train them to go potty in one area – but I don’t know if we’re up to that one. But it might be nice to have a potty area, or at least try.

We’re in Lexington, KY – zone 6. Our soil has a lot of clay in it, but the top layer is fill-dirt. Most likely, I’d use decent topsoil when I planted, too.

As for preferences in plants, I think a combination of shrubs and flowers would work well. We don’t have a color scheme or anything, so we’re open there. Because one of the dogs is a bird dog (although not trained for hunting), probably best to limit the bird activity to the trees beyond the fence. Butterflies could be nice, but not a necessity. Water features are nice, but (fair or not) we’re afraid of encouraging mosquitoes, which can get bad here in the summer.

All of the suggestions have been great – thank you. We’re using some of them to try to think through things.

Is something like pea gravel just as ‘okay’ to use as mulch? I know there’s some decomposition advantages to mulch, but is the gravel okay? I think we like the look better, and we’re hoping it won’t stick to the dogs’ feet like wet mulch likes to do.

I like the idea of adding a tree somewhere, but I’m not sure how it would look next to the 3’ high by 1’ diameter phone box in the back right corner. (The other corner has the larger electric box and cable box, where the holly bushes are currently located.) Would a tree be enough to block the phone box? Or should it be something like forsythia? I really, really like the tree idea, but not sure how to make it work.

Any thoughts on the area we currently have mulched in front of our patio, between the patio and yard? (Shown best in photos 11 and 15 on the slideshow: http://public.fotki.com/dkitchen/backyard-photos/?cmd=fs_slideshow) Note: sometime in the next couple of years, we’re going to add stairs to our deck, which, if looking at photo 15, will come off the deck at the top left corner and end on the part of the patio that extends out, which is at the bottom left of the deck of the deck in that picture. (Confused yet?) When that’s done, the stairs will cause part of that area to be party-shaded. And I’d assume we’d want it non-grass just better control the growth under the stairs.

Thanks again. You guys are GREAT!!!!!

David

if you're going to put stairs in then my thought about doing a bed along that side of the fence wouldn't work.

a tree would be a nice feature...dogwoods are nice and don't get too large. you just need to make sure you place it in a spot where the roots won't interfere with with any pipes or wiring that is underground. you can have the utility companies come out to mark off where all that stuff is so you don't put something in a bad spot. weeping cherry is a beautiful tree...you need to check about what the roots do tho...some of the 'weeper's' root systems search out water and could do damage to water pipes. i don't know if weeping cherries do that or not, tho.

the holly's will take a bit to grow, they'll look really nice in that spot once they get going tho! you could put the lilac on the other side to quickly cover the equipment. or even a butterfly bush - they get tall and would block that nicely. you do need to leave a path for access tho!

roses, either a bush type or climbing type (just put a trellis behind it for it to grow on) are good for your soil type - and maintenance is pretty low. the 'floribunda's' will also probably be okay for that soil type.

hydrangea are really really nice...they need a semi-shady spot tho and a soil that will be moist (as in, not quick draining, like clay). i think you could do one in one of the corners tho - or even in the spot that you're saying will be shaded once the stairs are in.

even tho it'll be a few years before kids toys will be an issue, it's best to plan it in...remember, whatever you plant will grow and establish a root system, so, placement of everything is important as there's only so much room to work with :) and you don't want to have to be removing stuff either!

no water feature makes sense if mosquitos are an issue. you could do a rock feature tho...i pm'd angelblossom to ask her to start up her thread again (it's on the old forum) because she did a really wonderful job and i can see something similar in your yard!

clay isn't so bad to work with...and you've got a layer of topsoil already. i'd recommend that the soil be amended whenever you plant something new, tho - especially since you'll be digging down to make holes large enough for the new plants and you'll be hitting that clay a bit.

i know mulch is an issue with the dogs...it is helpful in getting the soil in shape tho! i have clay too and i've always mulched with licorice root (no dog issue here) and i've found that, over the years, it's done wonders with my soil! i turn last years layer over into the soil and then put down another coating each spring. maybe one year of mulching, just to get the benefits of it, wouldn't be too bad?

gravel is nice as a mulch...it gets dirty over time tho. at least that's what happened with what the previous owner had here.

flowering bushes for sun: butterfly, lilac, spirea, forsythia, beautyberry, azalea, roses. all would be perennial (come back each year) in your zone and these all flower at different times, some roses will continue blooming through the summer, too. chinaberry is nice too...can be kept trimmed as a bush or let it go and it will grow into a tree.

flowering vines for sun: clematis, passion flower and wysteria would be perennial.

flowers with bulbs/rhyzomes/tubers would be perennial. tulips, hyacinth, iris, lily, allium, gladiola.

flowers that are perennial: coneflower, chrysanthimum, malva, rose campion, liatris, daisy, scabiosa.

groundcovers (perennial) would be vinca, liriope, sedums.

there are plenty more to choose from...these are just some that i can think of at the moment (and i've got most of them). others will have other suggestions!

you can always fill in bare spots with annuals, too. there are annual vines and flowers.

Personally, I think pea gravel, if it has the right mix of plants in it, can look very classy. Another idea you might want to consider is the use of a trellis. Placed off to one side on your bed shown in pics Nos. 11 and 15 it would give you some height and look real nice. Clematis looks real good climbing a trellis and has so many beautiful blooms throughout the summer.

i like the look of the pea gravel too...i've just never seen it looking nice after a couple of years without a lot of maintenance tho. the previous owner here had white gravel...which looked really dirty all the time so i pulled it out.

there are lots of different varieties of clematis...some bloom early, some late and some will bloom early and then rebloom. and some bloom in fall.

First, thanks again to everyone for the great advice. I’ve taken it all in, and want to see what you think of my first draft of a sketch of soon-to-be backyard. :smile:

For the back right corner, where there are currently a few hollies trying to mask two utility boxes, here’s what I’m thinking. Putting up a 3-panel lattice trellis with something growing up it to block the utility boxes. In front of the middle panel, placing a cute garden bench. Between the bench and the fence (much closer to the fence than the bench), putting in something like a hydrangea. Then, all around the ground, putting in something like a colorful decorative grass – powder blue festuca, northern lights grass or such. Finally, perhaps another matching hydrangea on the other side of the bench, again closer to the fence.

In the back left corner, which is bare except for a phone utility box, placing a tree – dogwood or such. There’s already a lilac in that area, and thought about adding another to fill the gap between the tree and the existing lilac. Again, using something like decorative grass or groundcover to add something low to the ground.

I’ll transplant two of the holly bushes to be located at either side of the side gate.

Keep the existing two ‘beds,’ the one between the patio and the fence, and the one along part of the front edge of the patio, and use those for flowers and/or shrubs. Not sure what we’d put in them exactly, but in time…

From the deck, which is above most of the patio, hanging baskets of plants.

Finally, highlighting the patio with a few potted plants.

For all areas, using pea gravel.

Here’s a sketch of what I have in mind.
http://public.fotki.com/dkitchen/backyard-2/?cmd=fs_slideshow

You guys know a lot more about this than I do. Am I on the right track? Thoughts or suggestions on what I should change from this, or pitfalls I heading into?

Again, thank you for taking time to help us.

David

I think it all sounds very nice David. I always tell people to remember this--the most important element here it whether you and your wife like it--y'all are the ones who will be living with it. A suggestion on flowers when you get around to choosing them. I searched diligently on the Net to find flowers that are perennial (don't really want to have to replant every year) and that bloom all season long or at least most of the season so my rewards are extended, not short-lived. I don't care for the remains of plants that don't have flowers on them. I also prefer flowers, shrubs and trees that are as trouble-free from pests and diseases as I can get. I just sent a list of most of my flowers to another person and would be happy to share it with you if you like. It could give you something to start with and save you all the HOURS I spent looking on the Net.

I like the sketch. A suggestion for the tree where you have maybe dogwood... There are evergreens, some come in dwarf varieties, since their branches are full and usuall to the ground all year that would hide the pipe thingy well.
link to google image
another one

I started to PM this to you joclyn but decided David might also be interested in seeing it. These are the ones that grow well in my yard (clay soil) and are mostly to attract butterflys.

flowers:
Daylilies (several colors)(these are sooo easy David)
Ferns (Ostrich and Southern Wood fern)
Yarrow (yellow, lavender/pink and paprika)
Shasta daisies
Coreopsis
Periwinkle
Butterfly weed
Yellow African iris
Elephant ears
Coneflowers (three colors)
Lantana
Catchfly
Rudbeckia (blackeyed Susan)
Jasmine
Joe Pye weed
Clematis
Sage
Phlox
Liatris
Ruellia Brittoniana--Katie's Blue
Dianthus
Salvia--May Night
Blanket flowers--Goblin
Indian Summer daisy

Grasses:
Dwarf fountain (Hamlin)
Pampis grass

David, if you are interested, I will post my list of shrubs and roses. Most of my shrubs are evergreen and many are flowering.

Sorry about that joc--I'm zone 8. Guess there is just a weeee bit of difference between here (west-central Mississippi) and Philly, lol.

MLN -- Thanks for the list. Would you mind posting the shrubs and roses list, too? This is GREAT!

Also, as I think through this, I had a question about weed fabric you guys might be able to answer. Is it worth it? I'm confused how plants that grow/double/spread do that if it's simply growing through a hole in the fabric. Obviously, anything that limits weeds is A+ in my book, but I don't want to limit my plants, either.

First, on the weed (landscape) fabric. I put it down on all my flowerbeds. What I did was cut very large holes for shrubs, flowers, and ornamental grass. For shrubs and grass, I cut a generous enough hole to allow the roots of the plants to get sufficient air. For flowers, I cut holes as big as I eventually wanted the flowers to expand to. For something like daylilies, when they fill the hole, it's time for me to separate and move elsewhere or share with friends. I use mulch on top which, of course, breaks down (I do have to remulch every so often). For flowers like coreopsis and coneflowers, if I forget to deadhead, they just self-seeded in the mulch and were super easy to pull out, plant elsewhere (or, again, share with friends). The weed barrier DOES WORK. Just don't buy the stuff at Wal Mart! It comes to pieces within a year. I got some (brown color) at Lowe's that worked very well and some black at Sam's that works real good. They are both pretty big rolls. And, if you use it, don't forget to make sure you have landscape pins to pin it down with. After the mulch begins breaking down, it will begin to grow weeds in the mulch. (Of course, if you use pea gravel, you won't have that problem.) However, they are REAL easy to get out even during dry weather. The landscape fabric also helps retain moisture longer. There are folks who don't like it at all but, again, this is personal preferance here. I have one more flowerbed to make on the west side of my house and it WILL have landscape fabric! Funny you should mention the corner trellis joc! I'm trying to do my back patio right now and need a corner trellis for some jasmine I want there. I already have some jasmine growing in another bed and it's so pretty. Now for that list of shrubs, here goes:

roses:
Florabundas (tougher than others and more disease resistant):
Betty Boop (gorgeous color--will post pics when it blooms)
Angle Face--very sweet smell, beautiful lavender color

Lady Banks--small but very profuse yellow blooms (and thornless!) Can allow to develop in natural fountain shape or train to fence or trellis.

(I just got one more florabunda that went in a place of honor for my step-daughter who was killed in a car/train wreck a few years ago but can't remember the name--will look it up later. It's a pretty tangerine color.)

Shrubs (flowering):
Chinese Fringeflower--Plumb Delight (sooo pretty in bloom right now! It has a fountain shape if unpruned)
Indian hawthorn--dwarf Yedda (more disease resistant than older varieties)
Abelia--?? lost my tag info :( (fountain shape if unpruned)
Abelia--rose Creek
Butterfly bush
Spirea--Vanhoutte
Crape myrtles--various types and colors
Pink variegated Daphne
Camellias
Sweet olives
Azaleas

Non-flowering shrubs:
Cleyera
Soft Touch Compacta hollies
Pittosporim--Wheelers dwarf
Helleri Japanese holly (dwarf)
Nandinas--Moon Bay (turn beautiful bright red in fall)

Hope this helps. I know how intimidating it can be to choose your landscape pretties when there are soooo many to choose from and you don't know all you need to in order to make a comfortable decision! All my choices were based not only on appearance but I wanted them to be as disease resistant as possible. I also learned I had to consider deer! I have 5 1/2 acres and started out making large beautiful flowerbeds out in the yard. The first winter, I walked around and couldn't find all my daylilies--turns out they are deer candy! And I'm not saying these won't have SOME problems, just not as many as a lot of things you could choose. Keep us posted! We're "rooting" for you :)

Joclyn, Phlox both tall and carpet varieties are perennial here in zone 5 so theyre good for you too.
I have used landscape fabric. Its best to weed or till the area first. Dont just put it on top of weeds hoping to kill them off. Then cut a X where you want to put in your plant. the Plastic is very bad for the soil, it doesnt let air or moisture in. Ick bad.
I have also used the newspaper method. Use the matte paper, not the shiny ads etc. A few layers of that with an organic mulch keeps weeds down and breaks down over time.I used it where I was putting new perennials that would shade out most weeds once established. Forgot about the crabgrass tho. Grr I hate that stuff.
You dont have cats right? Heres a hint for anyone who does. If kitty uses your flower beds for a potty spot, use the BIG ChUnKy Pine bark mulch. They dont like to dig in it.

Hi
I'm not going to be a whole lot of help --- in many ways, we're as clueless as you are! We have a pretty large back AND front yard that we're also trying to figure out what to do with them.

A couple of things I have to suggest though:

1. Have you thought about a ground cover so you don't have to mow? It would be a whole lot more attractive than pea gravel or any kind of rock. We are currently working on the same principle --- no mowing! Unlike you, our yards both have a fair number of trees and are generally mostly shade / part sun. We are putting in ground covers (mostly periwinkle (because it stays green all year, and I HATE everything being brown in the winter (comes from growing up in California!)) We are trying out creeping thyme and silver lamium this year also. But there are lots of ground covers for sunny locations as well.

2. I don't know who owns the property outside your fence (looks like it's probably city or county owned), but I would plant some evergreen trees over there (thuja and hardy Canadian hemlock are great - and fast-growing!) to 'enhance' the look of your own yard. You can get fairly small (and inexpensive) ones from the catalog nurseries and just take 'em over there and plant them. (Even if it is city or county, I don't think they'd care one way or the other - and probably wouldn't even know you planted them if you don't make a big production of it.) Just remember to spray some water over there for the plantings now and then to keep 'em from dying!

3. I also am crazy about lilacs! We have four bushes in the front of our house, and I plan to add a few more, here and there. The only problem with lilacs is the bloom period is so short! I am trying to go for a 'park-like' look for both the front and back - and am having such a hard time deciding what should go where! I've considered hiring a landscape designer to come in and draw us up a plan, then we can do the work as time and finances allow. (I'm an interior designer - you'd think I could design an exterior easy enough, but it's just NOT the same!

4. As far as the dogs are concerned, you might have to put up some kind of fencing - just tall enough to make them take the 'path' you want until your plantings are big enough to accomplish that without the fencing. By then, they'll be used to going a certain way and will do it automatically. If you create a kind of 'path' for them to get where you want them to 'do their thing', it will become a habit for them to go that way - but the 'getting to that point' time can be tedious!

That's about it for me --- like I said, I'm in about the same boat as you guys! Good luck! Can't wait to see your pix!

Shelley aka Sunshine

This is a great link!! I'm glad I ran across it!

David, we put fabric down in all of our planting beds, and I recommend it. We haven't had any trouble with plants propigating. By the time they are established enough to propigate, the fabric is weakend enough to tear and make room. We covered with mulch. The only problem is that with our wind and sandstorms, dirt blows in, and seeds root in the small amount of soil on top of the fabric.

Be careful with gravel--it's murder to hoe. We had river rock in some beds when we moved in. You WILL have weeds someday, so how do you want to get rid of them?

I think your plan looks very good, with a good choice of plants. I've heard it said that if you have utilities in your yard that you want to hide, draw attention AWAY from the item. So it could be that if you plant around it, the utility just goes away, kind of like you've done with the dogwood tree. If your'e planting something in front, remember to leave access to the panels. You'd hate to have to kill landscaping just to replace a fuse or something!!!

An idea for evergreen trees as a fence--check with your local Agricultural Department. They'll know what the farmers around there use for wind-breaks. Around here, it's Afghan pines. We got 3 for $15 from the Ag. Dept. They're 2 years old, and by the end of the summer, will block the alley view of our back yard.

Here they are at the very back of the picture, last year. Now they are taller than the fence.


We go heavily into perinnials, too. Again, your Ag. Dept. can guide you, as can local nurseries. In zone 7, vinca minor and sedums are great full-sun ground covers. I love Nandina bushes--they'll cover things, too, and have lots of color all year.

Keep us posted with your progress. It's a great plan!

We have used weed fabric in our vegetable garden. Works GREAT! Haven't tried it in the flower beds. If you value your time, the weed fabric is a good time saver--it seriously curtails the weeds. Though they will come up around the edges, of course, and sneak up through any holes, but they've been, thankfully, easy to pull up.

It might be nice to plant knockout roses on either side of your fence gate, they are tough and bloom non-stop through the summer. I had a yard similar to yours, I had a lovely Harry Louders Walking Stick shrub.
http://www.daytonnursery.com/Encyclopedia/Trees_Shrubs/Corylus.htm

My dog liked lying under it for shade, it has nice winter interest when it loses its leaves. I actually put in a small pond about 4' x 5', used the dirt to create a berm (I had to amend it with topsoil as it was just clay and rock) on the other side of the yard for perennial flowers. The dogs will stay off of it when the flowers are established. I used daisys, black eyed susans, monarda, coneflower, and ornamental grasses, they grow quickly and spread and they are tough. I bought a solar powered fountain/pump for the pond and put up a birdhouse on a pole and placed the solar panel on top of the bird house so I didn't have to run electrical to the pump.

lilacs are a good idea. They don't grow as fast as you think, but they will give your dogs shade as they thicken. You have a great opportunity to garden up as your yard is fenced. You could put clematis, morning glory, climbing roses, they can probably work using "monkey bar" trellis', above the possible naughty dogs reach and keep your plant investment safe.

Also, even though your yard is smaller, don't be afraid to come out 6-7' from the fence with your flower gardens, they make a great impact, you will still have plenty of lawn left for your dogs too.