A Gardeners Forum Forums General Discussion The Food Garden Forum The Tomato Forum Help me to do it right this time.

The season is upon us to start our tomato seedlings. I do it every year around this time, and every year they turn out the same. By the time those little seedlings are ready to go into the garden (end of May) they are tall, lanky, spindly funny looking plants and I'm embarrassed when people see them, 1 foot of stem and a few leaves on the very top. How do the greenhouses get such thick stems on theirs? How do they keep them from growing tall and spindly? I'm not a greenhouse but there must be a secret to make homegrown tomato plants look better than mine.
LOL, as bad as mine look I always get tomato's on them and the stems do thicken up once they are in the ground still it would make me happy to grow some nice indoor plants.

Thanx guys...

Do you use florescent lighting or just depend on sunlight? You have more control with the lighting and if you are like me, in my whole house, I only have one window that is south facing. It sounds like maybe you need more light, close to the seedlings.

I have my seedlings in a south window above the sink. The south window is the only window that has any sunlight, my other windows have no sun. My picture window faces north. I do have florescent lighting above the sink but I think it is too far up so the little plants try to reach up to the light. I don't use this lighting very often.

If possible a few cheap shop lights would help you. Then keep them about 1-2" above the plants for 16-18 hours a day. I use the 4 footers but you can buy them shorter. I have a light stand myself with 3 shelves but at first just hung them from the ceiling of a room in the utility area. It isn't mandatory but does make growing nice plants easier. The greenhouses have all the light they need so no need for the lights. Jay

Mine have grown to 2 inches high and look healthy for now. I will take good care of them since only 6 came out. Oh well, every year I have too many and I don't know where to plant them so I give some to the neighbours.

thick stems can be gotten if when you transplant them the first time to bury them all the way up to the first set of true leaves. And of course if when you take them outside you plant them sideways. I got very thick stems that way.

Thanks, but how do you plant a tomato sideways, do you mean at a slant?

Yep, you can plant them at a slant. Don't worry if the tops aren't pointing up when you plant, they'll bend themselves towards the light.

I think it is called "trench" planting. I wait until the plant is at least 12 inches tall and then harden it off. I dig a trench about that long and lay the plant in it. Leaving only the top sets of branches above ground I then fill in the trench. I get really thick stems that way.

I also use 50% compost for the tomatoes and they love it.

And I water from the bottom being careful that no dirt gets splashed up on the leaves.

Another thing I have learned to do is to dip my seeds in a 10% bleach solution before planting them. That way if they are carrying any diseases that kills them so my soil doesn't become contaminated.

You can also just bury them deep~straight down. I've done that a few times as well. Any part of the tomatoe plant will grow roots when covered in soil.

One drawback there is if the soil is cool deeper. Tomatoes like warm soil. There's also more air in the top 8" of soil. Some of the best growers just plant the whole stem, though, as much as 12" or so deep...I haven't tried it for myself yet. It definitely won't hurt the plant to bury the stems deeper, I just worry that it could delay fruit production by a week or 2. Either way, it's good to pick off some of the lower leaves and bury the stem. Like tamara said, you'll get roots from all the buried part. Not many vegetables benefit from having their stems buried.

that is what my Dad has taught me to do. the cold soil is not a problem here---But then I wait until past my frost date to plant. it does make for a sturdier plant, for sure.-and I cannot say I noticed any slowness of fruit.

dad does not wait until after the frost date--but he lives out in the garden this time of year & has many mini greenhouses made from the gallon milk jugs that he puts on & takes off as needed. he has a huge garden with multiple beds & sections.

not to mention a heated greenhouse------

I transplanted mine about 4-5 days ago. I buried them right up to the first set of leaves. They are kind of just sitting there not doing anything but then again 5 days wasn't that long ago.
I've never done trench planting before but it does sound like something worth trying especially on a not so stable looking tomato plant.

You'll see some serious growth soon, Daisy. Hah, isn't it great that gardening season is here!

You've transplanted in CA and here is KS it will be another 3 weeks at least. Doesn't seem fair. Yes like Dave said they will take off. You may have a little transplant shock and also they will grow roots. I've tried all sizes and have decided that I get best results setting out 6-8 plants. I know a truck gardener who transplants when they have two true sets of leaves and just starting the 3rd. Basically 4-6". Also talking about leggy plants if you keep them cooler they will tend to keep stockier. I use post holed diggers and plant mine in hole. If they are short straight up and if tall and lanky at an angle. I also mix some horse manure and compost with any additives I'm using that year. I've used Epsom salt,a pinch of bonemeal and a sprinkle of tomato food in the past. I have my soil built up now where I don't add much. Just the manure and a little alfalfa/manure compost. And then as they grow I fill in the dirt till it is withing an inch of ground level. I fill this in with mulch. And water with a drip hose. If planting early yes the soil temp. can slow down growth a little. I usually put plastic buckets around mine for the first 3-4 weeks and this helps warm it up. Two years ago had some out and was gone and it got 28 degrees and didn't lose a one. Had put some straw in the buckets up to the top of the plant. I also slant the taller ones. So figure the average depth would be 6" and very seldom over 8". Just some of my thoughts and methods. Hope you have great results with yours. JD

Yah Dave, it's great that spring and planting season is here. Boy, all the trouble we go through for a few months of warm weather, but yes, just loving it, and if it wasn't for the gardening, spring and summer wouldn't be the same. Like who doesn't get excited with the first red tomato or the first sign of a flower showing that a tiny little pepper is starting to peek through. I let everyone know of my accomplishment.

JD thanks for the advice. I had to transplant into bigger containers because the ones they were in were too small and caused the growth to go leggy and tall. I buried them down to their first leaves. They have about 6 leaves now. Around here it isn't safe to plant tomatoes outdoors until the 3rd to 4th week of May as there is too much risk of frost. This happened to me before where I set them out too soon and lost most of them.
Thanks for the fertilizing advice. I wasn't sure if it was safe to be giving little tomato plantings food? When transplanting outdoors a couple of years ago, I added cow or sheep manure mixed with compost into the planting hole and it turned my tomato leaves almost black. They sat there for a couple of weeks and looked like they were goners but then came around and started to grow. I did end up with a tomato plant that produced a lot of fruit that year. However, I did learn a lesson from this, I over fertilized so I know now to be careful and somewhat skimpy on the food.
I do wonder if I gave the little guys just a little pinch of plant food in the water if that would be okay? Forgive me, I am still learning.

manure needs to be aged a year before it is used and the best mix for tomatoes that I've found is 1/2 compost to 1/2 garden soil. They loved it. Really loved it. The epsoms salt is a very good idea since it will help the plants to not get bottom end rot. I add powdered egg shells to my compost to make sure I have enough calcium in my soil that I don't get the BER. I also add fireplace ash that I have watered and sifted the floaters out of to my compost. That's the potash component. My compost is made up of grass and leaves and it makes some of it's own potash but I always add about a cup full per 3x3x3 pile.

I spray my seedlings in the non-fertilizer commercial potting mixes I use most of with a fish/seaweed foliar spray from Neptune starting around 3 weeks of age. I usually let the plants tell me. I have plants that old this year and haven't sprayed yet. Probably will by the end of this week after I pot up a bunch. Now when using MG and some like them they have food added to many of them and usually follow their instruction unless the plants tell me they need something.
And yes most manure needs some age. I have used a mix of old and new horse manure for years without ever hurting anything and good results. The main thing isn't overdoing it. With cow manure especially the feedlot type it needs to be aged and use less than horse. Of course after 40 plus years I hope I've learned a little about what and how much to use. JME. JD

Last year I had tomatoes in my greenhouse and they got blossom-end-rot, some one told me to give them tums once a week and sure enough the BER was cured. I'm going to use epson salt this year too.

TK do you just mix it with the soil and how often do you give it?

I use it aged......I rots well here if left alone.

Hi, just a quick question, just how much epsoms salt do you use per plant? Do you put it straight in the bottom of the planting hole or we talking about a sprinkle while they are still preemies?

I used to use a baby spoon full sprinkled about an inch away from the base of the plant. Not really sure on what the 'real' exact amount is.

Asha, we are not allowed to post info of other garden sites.

OOOPS! Maybe I should have paraphrased? Thanks Tamara.

Will try to post a picture of my poor top watered plants later today. This year out of 300 plants not one case of damp off. Last year out of 450 not one case. The year before bottom watering 20 out of 100. It boils down to what works for you and what methods you use. I only bottom water toward the end when they are 6" or more. This works well for me. And my point is that neither way is right or wrong. Just what works for that person. I use a nice commercial mix that drains well with holes in the bottom and any excess drains off. The greenhouses here I know of top water. Just my experience after 40 plus years. JD

I top water mine, too, right up until they go in the ground...while they're still seedlings, I don't even worry too much if I wet the leaves a little, but I try not to wet the leaves or get any splash on the leaves once they're in the garden. Mulch is a must once they're planted out, to keep soil-borne diseases from getting splashed onto the leaves.

Dave I agree 100%. In fact I'm already mulching my tomoto area. Just leave circles about 24" in diameter. After I plant I water my drip hose. And I put the mulch over it. For me mulching eliminates almost all weeding and really improves the soil. I just turned the alfalfa mulch and manure under about 4" this year. Trying not to disturb the soil anymore than I had too. My soil is sandy so I don't need to break it up much and this way it seems the worms don't mind as much. But till I transplant to soil I water from the top and never had any problems. JD

I may get a bail or 2 of alfalfa to mulch with this year. I don't have enough leaves to go around. The alfalfa would sure make great compost to turn under this fall! There's a lot of mulch in just one bail, and weed seed wouldn't be a problem.

I agree with you JD, what works for one may not work for someone else but I sure love to read all that you're doing. Sometimes we can get good info' and it's helpful.

Dave it should work well. Last spring I bought three big 4x4x8 square alfalfa bales to feed the horses.They weighed close to a ton a piece. I didn't have the right equipment to handle them and two busted bad unloading and trying to move them. So I used at least a third of two of them on the garden. It made a mulch at least 3" deep. Worked that into the top 4" in the winter. Really has helped the soil. Also added 2" of manure when I did. It looks nice. JD

I use potting soil as mulch.

My little tomato plants got to have their first outing today. I put them in a box with plastic over top (a minature little greenhouse.) I'm hoping that this will help them to become stronger as they seem rather stuck sitting in the house doing nothing...lol something like me.

That could be alright, since it dries our quickly, but weeds could still grow in it. Plus, it's a little pricey. If you have a grasscatcher for your mower, you could dump the clippings on a piece of plastic or something and let them dry...that's what lot's of people do, it makes a good mulch, and it's free!

A ton you say: wow, JD how's your back?

I was trying to move them with forks on the back of a flatbed. When they fell apart and it rained and ruined a lot of it. I moved all that wheel barrow at a time. I figure I applied at least a ton in not more. But move it probably 75-100 pounds at a time. Took a while but was very good for the garden. JD

The potting soil was on sale.

Oh Oh, even though they were protected it looks like my tomato plants suffered the result of hardening off. They are still alive but look rather sickly. Some leaves dropped and others curled, so back in the house they go, awaiting warmer weather.
Also I don't know if it's the soil I used or what but they seem to be just sitting there and not growing.

At this point they need help. What can I give them if anything?

If it's cold give them some warm water(70 degrees)

Daisy, without seeing a picture, it's hard to say if you did anything wrong...Plants that are hardened off have to suffer some wind and sun, and sometimes damage from either...
Please don't try to use fertilizer or anything to "help" them, right now they don't need any boost to their growth, that will only make them more tender when you do try to harden them off...and it may be that they should be outside for at least a few hours everyday now, anyway.
Without seeing them, I can't say for sure, but there will be some changes as they toughen up for planting, they won't be as pretty and perfect as they were indoors if there is wind, etc., but at some point they have to go through that before planting out.

Ohhhh! I just went back and read your previous post...the box with plastic over it could easily have gotten too hot. It's a good idea, but you will have to keep a close eye on the plants, they can burn up in no time. It could easily get to 100 degrees F in there even on a cool day.

Daisy,
Dave gave you some very good advice. As I stated elsewhere I'm trying some direct winter sowing. Friday morning it was 28 degrees here but one milk jug had two plants in it and both looked great that morning and the water droplets were liquid on the inside. I didn't remove the lid as it was still so cold. By the time I got home that evening I had lost one and another looked not so good. Took the lid off and the other was fine by yesterday. We worry about freezing but the plastic and jugs hold a lot more heat in that you think. And in my case this is something that is going to take some time. I put tape over the top and cut out a little hole. Will see if that is enough or not. The plants I have left look great. Best of luck in your venture. I just got started good in potting up venture. I'm saying I got around 75 potted up with around 300 more to go. And have decided to change potting soil if I can find what I'm looking for. Had started an experiment with the MG Organic soil compared to my usual commercial mix. And I was a few days late with the fish/seaweed spray. But the MGO is impressing me. Made a late night trip 44 miles one way to our closed Wally World super duper last night to find out they are out. Will do some calling today. So far this has performed better than any of the other MG products I've used. Not cheap but what we won't do for our maters. LOL. JD

Thanks I will have to remember that about plastic possibly holding too much heat. I put the plastic over them to protect them from the wind.
Right now they are indoors (without cover) I just took a look, and outside of the leaves looking very dark green they appear to have survived. Now, I will have to keep them indoors because it is too cool outside, in fact calling for snow flurries on Thursday and Friday. Unbelievable, it's coming to the end of April..doesn't the saying go..April showers brings May flowers..

Wind can be a real challenge. My plants did fine in 20 and 30 mph winds, after they got hardened off a little, but one day, we had 50 mph gusts! I got home and looked at my plants, and a lot of them had wind burn on the leaves. They pulled through, though. I sure was upset at first!
Some years I delay planting into the garden for as much as a couple of weeks because the wind is just too intense.

Isn't that a cry? That happened to me in the past with much bigger plants when I tried to get them use to the outdoors, the wind was too harsh so the next thing I see my leaves hanging like a wilted rag not to mention all the broken branches. Hee hee on some plants all that was left were the tops so they looked pretty hilarious going into the ground. Isn't it nice that as long as the tops are there, even the charlie brown one's end up producing tomato's in the end.

HeeHee! That's a great description!
(Just be careful when you hang that ornament on 'em!) :wink:

I usually put plastic buckets around mine for a few weeks so they can grow out and get used to the hard winds we have here in the open spaces. No trees here. That is why many times I only harden for a week. The buckets limit the amount of full sun also for awhile. I put my first ones outside Saturday and if it looks like the weather is going to hold will start dropping a few in the ground this weekend. I'm really impressed so far with the MG organic potting soil. Way better than any other MG product I've tried. A little wind burn don't hurt them. I try to avoid sunburn if I can. JD

I'm using the MG myself this year, Jay, but I mixed it with other stuff, so can't really say if it's MG alone, but I really like their organic fertilizer and bone meal. I had incredible results with it last year, far better than with Plant-Tone. You can tell by the texture alone that they're great products...the bone meal is sort of fluffy and moist, not the dry, powdery bone meal I'm used to that resembles powdered lime. I think it's nutrients are much more readily available than other brands, and it actually contains significant nitrogen, not just phosphorous.
The MG potting soil has great texture, that's for sure.

I no longer use MG;it's too expensive!

Dave the organic is the only MG I've used that I felt was any better than what I was using. I've seen the bone meal. While try to buy some tomorrow when I pick up more potting soil. I put bone meal on my onions tonight but it was the white powder. Will try the MG meal as I put a little in each hole when I plant. I'm not sure I want any more N in my mix or not. And I agree it is a little higher but if I can get away from the spraying every 10-14 days it will be worth it. JD

I thought somewhere I was reading about over watering your plants. I have a soaker house that I turn on in the evening after the sun goes down to water. I used to have a water sprinkler on a pole to water the garden but I read somewhere to not water the tomatoes like that. (not to let the water get on the leafs of the tomatoes) How often and how should I be watering the plants.

Thanks
Lori

I water by drip hose and let the plants tell me when they need it. It also matter on the soil you have. If the ground is tight it is easier to overwater. In my sany soild that is 10-30 ft. deep would be hard to overwater. But I still let the plants tell me. Your soaker hose will work fine. Just don't overwater. More plants are hurt by kindness than by neglect. JMO. JD

Something is wrong, my tomato plants aren't growing. I think it's the vegetable soil mix that is the culprit. My MIL planted hers 2 weeks later and hers are bushes, but mine are thin stemmed and have barely grown, even though I buried the stems when transplaning. The leaves are slightly darkened and not the vibrant green that tomato leaves normally have...groan I tried.

Anything I can do at this late stage to perk them up? Planting season is in 2 weeks and we have such a short season, I think I will have to forgo my favorites and buy a couple of plants at the store.

I would give them a shot of fish/seaweed if you can find it. If not a touch of MG with a high second number might jump start them. I will have around 200 extra drop by and pick up a few. LOL. JD

some compost might help as well.

I have compost but at this time it's frozen solid. I could give them water from my fish tank, will that help?

I've watered with fish tank water once or twice. it is supposed to be real good for the soil.

fish tank water is great for plants i use it a lot.

I think I'm narrowing the problem down to the soil I used. It was organic and specially formulated for vegetables so what could have gone wrong? What could be in the soil that is destroying my tomato plants?? I used the same soil last year and my tomato plants were half the normal size but I didn't connect but now that it's happened this year as well I'm almost positive that it's the soil I used.

You might need to add some compost and aged manure to your soil as well as fertilize your tomatoes.

Sometimes the cool temps stop the tomatoes from growing well. Are they getting much sun?

Thanks Tamara. My tomato plants are in a south window so lighting is not the problem. Since they are indoors I don't think it's too cool in here? I am watering sufficiently, not too much or too little but it's city tap water so who knows ( I let it sit for a few days so the chlorine will evaporate).
I do have some bought manure that I can add.

Later I will check out the bag of soil I used and read what it has in it, then maybe I will be able to figure out what it is lacking?

I checked the bag of soil I planted my tomatos with. Here's the ingredients..

Blend of organic top soil
peat
sand

My tomato plants are sick, the leaves aren't green as they should be, they have violet undersides and some of them look curled and wilted, over the last couple of days they are starting to fall off. Yesterday I was upset and put them under shelter outdoors because it was hard for me to look at them in this condition. I figure they should either improve or die off and then I won't feel bad throwing them in the garbage. Gosh guys, thankfully I only had 6 plants that was supposed to be the best ever, well not this year.