A Gardeners Forum Forums General Discussion The Food Garden Forum No Till Gardening.... to do or not to do?

Hi Everyone,

I'm new at organic gardening and I want to know about this no-till-gardening? Does anybody know anything about it? I was considering it as I work outside the home and have limited time but plenty of space.. It appears to be composted gardening is this correct? Plus my husband wants me to plant potatoes what is the best way to start them and when? Also one more question,, do strawberries grow best on sandy soil or organic soil or black soil and when do they need to be planted? Thanks for any input... I live in SW Wisconsin so it's cold here until Mid May.

Whoa! you weren't kidding about having a lot of questions. ha ha
you might get more responses for each question if you open seperate threads next time.

I believe what you are talking about with the no-till, is called lasagna gardening. I've been doing that in most of my flower beds for a couple of years now. the theory is, your dirt bugs (worms and such) come up to nibble on the decaying newspaper, grass clippings, whatever and they loosen the soil for you. I'm finding I still need to hand till a bit. the soil still gets too compacted. I'll say this though....the lasagna garden works great for keeping the weeding down to a minimum!

potatoes can grow well in straight compost.

and I'll skip commenting on stawberries. I just don't have much luck with them.

I thought of something entirely different when you said no till gardening. A couple of years ago there was a documentary about how tilling causes the loss of top soil. I live on a slope so if I till and it rains I'd lose most of my top soil so this is what I'm doing.

I bought an awesome auger and I'm getting an 18 volt drill. I'll dig holes about twice the size that I need and add compost and amendments as needed for each type of plant to the hole and then plant. This way when it rains i won't lose all the good soil.

For those things that are seeds that need to be planted I'll do a little berm on each side and then amend the soil in the middle and then plant as directed.

Strawberries - I don't think they have ever found a soil they didn't like. I'm from washington state and about the only problems we ever had there was keeping them in place. The soil up there was pretty loamy. Lots of bio matter. Don't plant until all chance of frost has past. Usually 2 weeks after the frost date for your area.

For potatoes you need to buy seed potatoes from the grower of your choice. The reason for doing this is that there is less chance of them being diseased. Then you cut them up into 1 inch pieces with an eye on each piece. They are planted in a loose soil and you need to make sure that you have enough soil around that you can continue to make sure they stay under the soil. They like to poke up above the soil and that turns them green and makes them toxic. A raised bed and a covering of straw works really well for them.

Good Luck with your garden.

tk

you been reading a good farm magazine.
That is all correct about the no till.....We refuse to plow in the fall for that reason.

Some of the neighbors use notill on the corn fields. Sharp chisel like machine to plant the corn deep enought and add fertilizer.. His works.

:ding:

I have to till where I live, and with the large garden I have. I often go aver the rows once to break them up, then a second time to till in amendments...leaves, manure, whatever organic matter I can get my hands on. I'm a strictly organic gardener, working with very poor sandy soil. Ideally, I'd like to till, amend, till again, once in the fall, once again in the spring if necessary...eventually, I may be able to skip the spring till and just plant. It's best to wait a few days or weeks after tilling for the soil microbes to re-establish colonies. Tilling can eventually lead to compaction of the subsoil in medium to heavy soils, so digging down below the compacted layer with a spade evety few years would be preferred.
I have used lasagna beds on a small scale here with good success, but it can get labor intensive for large areas.

so if I put cardboard down in my garden and cover it with lovely soil stuff I won't have weeds? I've tried this many times with newspaper and the weeds just came right back.

Hi bestofour you really need the hot chicken poo to kill off the weeds I think. At least that seems to be the trick of it. Otherwise the weeds may be slowed down some but they still come up. It just takes them alittle longer. Or at least that's been my experience.

I've emailed my daughter to ask her husband to bring me a truckload. they have 9 chicken houses.

Caution on using chicken poo......

It has to be used sparingly....it will burn out the whole bed.
Chicken has lots of ammonia and is a killer.......Better do more research..

Cow poo is safe.

I was thinking the same thing, dodge. but, didn't want to say anything because I didn't know for sure.

I was always told all "poo" had to be aged----you know--not new but kinda dried out in order to be safe/good for gardens?? Hey, dodge--what say you ???

and about keeping dpown weeds.--if you put down at least 2 or 3 layers of newspaper, wet it down and ten cover it with grass clippings---you should be good to go--the trick is to keep the grass thick so no sun reaches the soil. I did this with my garden & blackberries out at my other house. --if I got lots of grass clippings in the spring I would oftwen even skip the newspaper.---

My blackberries flourished with grass as mulch---

* Make sure you do not rake grass that has gone to seed for your garden or flower beds---no need to grow new grass in your garden---

I live on a farm.
Had chickens for a while..
Hubby always cautioned me about putting that in my gardens. It will kill everything if you put too much on ..

Think I will go look it up.

The thing with lasagna gardening is use either fresh or hot manure because you don't plant in it right away. You let it 'age' a few months before planting. It is really just a compost pile right where you want to plant a new bed, without the turning involved. If you aren't going to give it time to compost or breakdown thoroughly, then you do certainly need to use old, composted manure.

There is no till and minimum till. The farmers around here are using both as fuel prices increase. In the garden the best books on no till are by Ruth Stout. She did this many years ago. The things to remember is the soil needs to be built up when starting or it will take a while. I mulch very heavy. I have a fair sized garden and applying the mulch back every year is a job if I till or plow it in. What I'm doing now is I use a post hole digger on my small tractor to dig the holes for each tomato plant. The holes are 12 inches in diameter. Where I want rows I pull the mulch back add any nutrients(cottonseed meal, alfalfa pellets, tree leaves, soybean meal and bone meal) if I think it needs any and till to around 4 inches if I think it needs it and this also work the nutrients in. My soil is sandy and really with the worms is fairly loose. I then pull the mulch back till planting. This prevents erosion. When I plant I pull it back and plant. Then pull it back as the plants grow. If I feel the soil needs broke up below I use a sub soiler. I can pull this through the mulch. With the mulch I have very few weed problems. I hope to get to where I don't have to till any. And maybe there. I have just done is so long I feel better if I do a little. The holes I dig for the tomatoes I add my additives and tree leaves and mix it all in as I fill the holes back up to within 6 inches of the top. I then cover and leave set till I either winter sow seeds or put transplants in. I use an old twist type hole digger to dig the pepper holes and prepare them. I like to prepare the holes as early as possible as it give the additives time to decompose and also the soil time to settle back some. The areas where I don't plant are only worked if I use the subsoiler. And I rotate planting so where there were no plants this year there will be next year. With the mulch even the walk ways don't pack that hard. I think it is being a good steward to use a little tilling as possible. The corn farmers here are still raising as many bushels without all the plowing they used to think was necessary. The best way is too try different ways and see what works in your garden. JD

In regards to the chicken poo. You want it hot and to burn everything underneath it. That way you don't have to worry about what is there now interferring with what you want to plant in your new bed. That's it's purpose. You certainly don't use it on a bed that is already planted.

Lasagna beds are created in one growing season and planted the next growing season. So yes by the time you plant the bed, the poo has aged and turned from a killer to a nutrient.

The chicken poo layer goes down prior to the cardboard. The cardboard is also a weed deterrent. It's purpose is to block all light from reaching the soil in your new bed area. The cardboard or paper layer must overlap or it will not be totally effective.

they do no till farming here, no tilling at all the new crrop goes right in over the stalks of the old crops, never reeally thought about it for my garden, but then I don't do big veggies patches, might this year thought, prices of everything going sky high

I no longer have a lot of room to garden because the area I do have is so low, I would have to add an extension to my raised garden.---and when I say I,- I mean my DH.---I am not much for construction.

but I like the idea of stopping my weeds with the lasagna method. Esp since I have not been able to garden for 2 summers.---(you could mow half of my raised bed-- )


Tammy:
Thank you for the explanation of how the lasagna garden works.--I may do that this year. I could always put a tomato plant in one of my large flower pots.

I was thinking of putting the chicken po down now then planting this spring. Is that long enough. I don't know if he has some just laying around or if they haul it off immediately. How long does it take to age?

no way in your zone is that enough time this year. But if you have some that you don't plan to make into a garden until the spring after this one then the timing would be great. Something like me. I've got 1,000 square feet of garden space I plan to turn over to a veggie garden but I'll only do half of it this year. So I could put down chicken poo now on the part that I don't plan to garden until the year after.

Your very welcome Juniegirl.

THANK YOU!!! so much for the suggestions and I will most definently take them all to heart/thought.

Last year I had a bit of a bad misshap.. We had all that nasty rain and it ruined my garden to the point that in mid/late-june I had to replant 3/4 of it. I thought welllllll there's no competing with mother nature so I slipped in my boots and slapped on my gloves and totally re-planted my garden and to my amazment it came back beautifully the only thing was that as being a newbee to gardening I didn't realive how my pumpkin and squash vines would go CRAZY!! so I had them going this way and that way and also up the side of our house...(my husband was not amused by this as I was pretty proud of myself for the come-back up the house and all!).

My question is: can they grow up a trellis of some sort as long as it's not to high? And no I can't plant my garden in another part of the yard due to underground power lines... The power company is a bit touchy about anybody cutting their lines.

Thanks
OldEngines90

You can definately use a trellis as you would for beans. My grandpa used to grow those huge chinese gourds/melons...they got to the size of a watermelon, and he used a very simple trellis he put in himself. He just tied long bamboo canes together to make sort of like a pergola trellis. The vines will climb them.

His bit of wisdom: to stop the melons/gourds from falling off the vine (they'll dangle from the 'top' of your trellis structure...thing of how wisteria flowers) you have to put netting over the gourd and tie the netting to the trellis. I don't know if you've seen them before, but the netting that he used was the netting from buying lychee fruit. They're yellow or red nets, and is basically a tube sealed at one end (sort of like a stocking, but bigger holes in the net). The idea is to support the melon without impeding its growth or causing it the fruit to grow deformed from supporting it.

I've seen people grow luffa and they tied string from the side of their roof (gutters?) to the ground and had luffas dangling...quite a sight!

google vertical gardening. It will tell you several ways to use trellises on your vining plants. Kennyso's description is a good one.

I've grown cucumbers on tomato cages but I can't imagine squash growing up a trellis. The fruit is so heavy.

I think that's why he explained how to rig slings for the squash.

It all matters what are you planting where you put the chicken manure down? And how heavy are you applying it? I always use chicken manure where the sweet corn will be and have put it down as little as a month before planting. Mine is always mixed with fresh and partly aged. In my case I clean the houses twice a year. So some will be 6 months old and some will be fresh. Never no problem and my family and I have done this for at least 50 plus years. For tomatoes ect. unless it is really aged I either don't use any or very little regardless when I apply it. Too hot and you get too much growth and not enough fruit. I like to apply in the fall but like I said clean the houses in the spring and don't like to leave it piled up all summer. So I apply it too the corn ground and even to ground that will be fallow or just add it on top of the mulch and it will take time to fully decompose and will be aged by then. These methods work well for me. JD

here are pictures of my start at lasagna gardening.

I have two spots that I plant. There is green stuff underneath all the leaves. I've bought bags of organic cow manure that I'm going to put on top of the leaves. I think since it's already February I'll use newspaper instead of my original plan of cardboard.

I see you have leaves on top, how do you keep them from blowing away? I have read that it's very healthy for the earth and if I can do a little bit on my part to perserve what we have left of our ozone I'll do it. As of right now here in SW Wisconsin we still have about 3 ft of snow on the ground but today is a beautiful sunny 41 degree day..

Just one more quick question? I was thinking of trying pole beans this year and thought about how to erect poles for them to climb up and a friend of a friend told me she uses an old bed spring. You would of course have to stand it up on end but being that it's an average 6ft it's accessable to reach up to. I was also told to use an old fishing net. Hmmm interesting thought I never would have came up with either of these two ideas. I suppose you could use them for blueberries/beans/pease or anything that needs to climb or crawl. What is everyone's take on this..

Happy Day,,
OldEngines90

the leaves are wet.

I plant blue lake bush beans rather than pole beans but the bed spring will probably work but I guess it depends on how many you are planting. I've noticed that gardeners around here use a lot of poles and a lot of string. The birds do keep eating my blueberries. I need to put a net over them.

While your greens and browns are decomposing they will steal nitrogen from the soil so you may want to do a soil test before you plant. Just to make sure that the manure is replacing enough of the nitrogen.

I was going to put lime for the tomatoes. Someone told me one time that because of all the oak trees I shouldn't ever need nitrogen. Wonder if that's true.

I agree. You probably don't need nitrogen in your soil with oak leaves.

it's raining and I'm glad. The leaves will stay in place for sure.

Thank you so much for all your input, I like the idea of using a trellis to grow vining fruit/veggies on. I've seen folks around here using livestock wire panel's bent over to form a "trellis" for their flowers being this is a rural farm area they are easily acquired at your local Farm and Fleet stores but I suppose they would work for veggies also?

FYI --- Wisconsin Public Television and WI Public Radio will be hosting their Garden Expo Feb 13, 14 and 15th,,in Madison,Wisconsin at the Alliant Energy Center.

I have seen people use concrete reinforcing wire bent into a "tunnel" for vines to climb. Looked pretty neat in the summertime! I've thought about using pvc pipe and hogwire as a trellis. Stick the pvc in the ground a few feet apart and attach the wire to it on each end with twine or wire. The hogwire would be cheaper than the concrete reinforcing wire and the pvc would give it stability. Not sure just yet how I'm going to trellis my beans and such. I know I had a watermellon climb a stalk of corn last year! LOL

Annette

My neighbor went to a local farmer and collected: cow poo.. and his "box" gardens did great.. Just wondering is there much difference as far as acidity and so forth between chicken and cow he swears by cow poo? Thanks.. Theresa

It more depends on how fresh or 'hot' the manure is. Chicken manure is hotter when fresh but tends to break down faster in ideal situations. Cow manure is not as volatile to start but breaks down a little slower in the same situations. Are you talking fresh or partially or fully composed? Both are wonderful for gardens when they are composted.

You
Your neighbor is correct.........cow is best.

b

I'm am getting peat pots today and starting my seeds. Wish me luck.

What I'm confused about is that I can see weeds growing around the leaves that I piled on top of my lasagna garden. When I move those leaves back to plant aren't those weeds just going to spread into the garden?

Good Luck Sheri

YOu can do it.........Now when you see the weeds, pull them out and try not to pull your flower.. YOu will know the difference .....weed and flower.
Good luck, just keep them moist.. seeds.

LMK restults.

so the weeds will creep into the garden spot?

Why is it that in the yard, where I want grass, if I leave the weeds there nothing will grow until I re-seed? In the garden is another story.