A Gardeners Forum Forums General Discussion The Food Garden Forum Vegetable Gardening Straw, hay, or mulch for the garden

Hi I live in Middle Tennessee, just started my first raised bed garden this year, it is appr. 16 X 8 ft. When I setup my bed I put 3 parts topsoil to 1 part compost.

This is what I have planted:

6 tomato plants (3 of those are bush tomato plants)
7 cucumber bushes
2 squash
2 okra
4 jalepeno
42 white onions


Should I straw or hay the garden?
Would it be good to mulch my plants now?
I also have access to alot of cow and horse manuer, would that be better?
Or should I just not do anything at all?

Thanks and sorry for all the questions, I am still in the learning phase

Chris

Hi & welcome! I'll be brief b/c I'm behind right now trying to catch up! Hope others will chime in with more detail.

If it's bagged topsoil you got from a store, this is not the best medium for plant growth.

Can you be more specific about the compost component? Bagged? or your own? If it was something like compost with rotted manure, you can add a layer about 2-3" deep (I'd guess) on top of the soil especially around the base of the plants. Then...

MULCH!! Yes!! use straw, not hay (hay typically has seeds).

Manure is good, but it needs to be rotten/composted manure, not fresh off the barn floor!

P.s. you are going to have a lot of cucumbers!

Hi Marcia thanks for the reply. The topsoil that I put in the garden was by the truckload. It is finely sifted topsoil. The compost mixture I also got by the truckload and it was a mixture of some compost and sand I believe.

I put 3 scoops of topsoil down first, then put 1 1/2 scoops of the compost mixture as my top layer. I bought all of this from a nursery.

When I planted my vegetables I added the planting soil with miracle grow (can't remember the name) with my plants in the holes.

Update: I went out and bought a straw stack from Co-op today and strawed my garden.

Thanks again for all your help!
Chris

I also like to use grass clippings for mulch. I like that it sort of knits together to make a fine mesh that retains water to the plant, keeps weeds at bay better. Plus, it's free!

There is a current discussion somewhere else here (maybe on the flower forum) about topsoil. The general consensus is that it sucks (pardon the language). The problem is that it contains very little organic matter. This pretty much applies to anything that's called "topsoil"-- bagged, sifted, truckload... .

So as I assess what you've said about your soil, including "some compost & sand," I'd be really surprised if you didn't have some water retention issues-- like the soil is not going to retain very much moisture. The immediate region around the plants, where you added the enhanced MG product, probably will, but pretty much all of the things you planted (exception onions) have root systems that are going to spread beyond this "good" zone.

Straw will definitely help, though. As will grass clippings, and anything else that decomposes quickly. Be sure to keep adding it on top as the season progresses. I think if it were me, I'd start bagging or raking up the grass clippings now (be sure the grass hasn't gone to seed, though). I'd then push back the straw around the base of the plants (now while they're small) and add a layer of 1-2" of clippings in about a 12" diameter around the base. Then cover again with straw. You could do the same with anything that you would normally compost (vegetable peels, leaves, even dead weeds).

Come this fall, after your harvest, mow & bag all of the leaves (or use a leaf blower to shred them) and spread those out on your garden. You could also cover with straw at that time too. During the winter, all of this will decompose and add organic matter to your garden soil.

By the way-- where about are you?

Wow everyone thank you for the replies. I love the idea about the grass clippings and leaves. I will get on that asap. I live in middle Tennessee.

Thanks again for all your help

p.s. = Marica how do I know when my grass has gone to seed?

duke--

Do an image search for "lawn grass gone to seed". Basically, you'll see spikes (not blades) that are popping up & the tops look like wheat or rye. You just don't want to be "sowing" grass in our garden!

Thanks Marica for all your help

Marica is pretty much right on, but it is possible that screened topsoil and/or compost can be high quality, it's just not that there is any guarantee, especially with bagged products. It's best to blend all the products, including manure, etc. but that isn't an option now. You'll likely have some success, maybe great success, but you'll have an even better year next year if you follow Marica's advice and throw in compost/manure/grass clippings, etc. in the fall, turn all of it at least once, and by springtime, you'll have terrific soil.

I used to use straw all the time until I put down straw one time and some type of horrible oat looking stuff grew up all through. It was hard to get rid of. I've never used straw since.

I use what I can get for free for mulch. I prefer alfalfa hay. No seeds or weeds. I use all the loose hay from around my stack and any moldy from the the bottom of the bales. I use other hay and straw. I have lots more seeds germinating in the straw than I ever do with hay or grass clippings. Just make sure the hay hasn't gone to seed and it should be fine. On grass clippings don't use for a few mowings if this has been sprayed. I get grass clippings from the Recreation department and wait at least two mowing when they spray it. Which is usually once a year. I continually add to my mulch during the season. I add manure fresh from the horse pens and just add mulch on top. By the fall it is decomposed and good stuff. I have worked it in in the past but now I'm just pulling some of the mulch back and planting then putting it back after the crop comes up. If you use lots of mulch and build your ground up you won't have any water retention problems. I have sand that is 25 foot deep. In the hot summers here using a drip system I usually only water 2-3 times a week. I also sprinkle alfalfa pellets(if I don't have enough loose hay), cottonseed meal and bone meal on the old mulch before I add more. And a dose of molasses is great also. It get the little soil critters to working. You can use black strap molasses or get some from your feed store. I imagine your garden will do fine. Best of luck. Jay

Thanks peppereater,Bestofour, and elkhwc for all of your responses. Everyone on this site is so knowledgeable....I have to say this is the best forum that I have come across.

You're welcome!

I think we're on a mission from god! :-)

(And you're right about this forum. The thing I like it is that there ARE experts here, but they don't have an "attitude" like on other forums.)

Well, I have to say, you kind of lucked out, some good gardeners all jumped on the chance to answer your questions...and happened to know a lot about the topic.
That said, we all love helping newbies, we'd hate to see anyone get frustrated from their first experience and throw in the towel. gardening is a lifelong passion once you have a good year...unfortunately, some years are just better than others...but what a great excuse to get outside and commune with nature!

so what are you going to do?

Hi best,

I have already strawed my garden....The next thing I will do is pull back the straw from my plants and add grass clippings every time I mow.

I have access to get as much manure as I want, so I am going to get some. I will set it aside and let it dry out and then till it in with my garden this fall.

After doing some research and listening to you guys and gals I may do a layer system with my garden this fall:

1st = newspaper
2nd = hay
3rd = topsoil
4th = straw
5th = topsoil
6th = compost

I got this off an image search on google

Hi best,

I have already strawed my garden....The next thing I will do is pull back the straw from my plants and add grass clippings every time I mow.

I have access to get as much manure as I want, so I am going to get some. I will set it aside and let it dry out and then till it in with my garden this fall.

After doing some research and listening to you guys and gals I may do a layer system with my garden this fall:

1st = newspaper
2nd = hay
3rd = topsoil
4th = straw
5th = topsoil
6th = compost

I got this off an image search on google



Thanks
Chris

ahhhh lasagna gardening. I used cardboard, newspaper and leaves. Didn't work too well. I piled so much stuff on top of stuff then piled on leaves and it was a lot, and I mean a lot, of work to get to the actual soil when I was ready to plant. I thought I could do it from fall to the next spring but the cardboard didn't breakdown as quickly as I thought. I think a thin layer of everything will work. I got too excited and the cardboard I used was too thick maybe.


As far as the straw. I had used it many times before without much of a problem, just grass here and there. I don't know what happened with the oat stuff. I bought it already baled up.

I guess you could say I use the layer method of gardening to some extent. Some years I still rip it deep which pulls everything on top down some. Then I have to till some afterwards. Otherwise I'm getting more like the Ruth Stout method and was way before I even heard and read about her. I don't put any cardboard down. The thing I like about grass clippings is they lay better than straw in the wind. I usually apply them freshly mown and spread them thin so they will dry and not stink.
I've been around and involved in farming and ranching all my 56 years. The thing about hay and straw is kind, when it is cut, type, and how it is put up. I feel that is one reason you see so many different opinions on straw and hay. Here most if not all straw is baled behind the combine. So there is always some wheat seed in it. I've put down some now that had set in large bales rotting for 3-4 years and the bales were half rotted and still having more problems with seeds germinating than I ever have. Here the hay is mainly alfalfa which is great most of the times. As it should be cut before it seeds. A few growers that don't take care of their fields will have dirty hay but most don't. As long as what they have hasn't went to seed I'm ok with it. If it has I stay away. The other hays you find around here are what we call feed hay( sorghum ect), bermuda( Which is like using grass clippings if cut young and dried properly) and some are growing some grass mixes for horses(again avoid any that has went to seed). I don't use much feed hay as the stalks are two coarse usually. I have cleaned up the bottomw of stacks where it has rotted. My main point is everyones experience can be different depending on source. And many don't know their sources like I do and also haven't looked at as much hay and straw as I have over the years. I can usually look at it and know right off if I want to use it. Wheat and oat hay unless cut real young are two to stay away from as you can have lots of seed problems. If mulched heavlly it is easy to remove though. Just some of my thoughts and experiences on using straw and hay. Jay

Jay, move next door to me please. Do you till too?

Until my straw grew stuff I didn't know it would. I thought it was dead. Should the place where it is sold know the answer to my questions about what type of hay or straw it is?

I found out about the cardboard use on another forum and it has worked well for them. I think I didn't give it enough time to break down.

I've never used grass clippings but I'm going to give that a try this year. The process I used has kept out the weeds though.

Whoa! Thanks for that, Jay! I feel like I should copy your post and save it in my "important information" folder. I think I will.

Alot of great information, thanks all.

I used old straw, or so I thought it was, and spread it and rototilled it into the garden last year. We had beautiful soil soft and easy to work with, but what a time we had once the veggies started coming through, we had oats growing wild everywhere. We had to get that out as fast as we could for it's roots were the strongest you've ever seen once we let it grow for a while. What a mess it was, but a warning to be careful what we use and to make sure its old stuff.

I'll keep that in mind rose.....thanks

I till less and less every year. My soil is the best I've ever seen it. Where you used to find a few worms in the whole garden now you get at least a few everytime you reach down and remove a handful of soil. It is soft and great looking now. I had a soil sample ran on it last year and it was high in NPand K. So didn't add anymore manure this year. I do add molasses to my holes and some row crops. Also trying some fungi on some crops this year.
It depends on where you buy your hay and straw. Some stores probably will if they buy it locally. I usually get mine direct from the farmers. I have picked up some elsewhere for free. I know hay and straw well enough I can usually tell if it is weedy or was cut too late by looking at it. Look for any seeds heads in the bales. If you see any check to see if the seeds appear to be mature or not. Also check for weeds and grass burrs. Grass burrs are one thing that can mature between cuttings and cause problems. If there is any I don't want the hay or straw. Jay

Hi everyone,

I may have a problem with the straw I layed down please help!

Im pretty sure I picked up some straw that was seeded.

I have grass that is starting to grow in my garden now. When I scrape away some of the straw it has grown into the soil.

Does anyone have any suggestions to remedy this problem?

Thanks again

My suggestion would be too remove it before the roots get established well. Any idea what kind? On the wheat and oats if young I just put mulch over them. Sometimes I won't get to it till it has some size then pull it. If your mulch is deep then most things are easier to pull than if in bare ground. Jay

That grass growing from the straw is probably Oats seeds......All straw still leaves some seeds on the ends.. If all pulled it wont come back.. If you let it grow you will have lots of new oats seeds on it >LOL
Have a rabbit?

Update: Thank you everyone for all your responses.

I decided to take all of the straw out of the garden this morning.......fun stuff

Put down a bunch of newspapers and got them wet. Then I went and got 10 bags of Humus and Manure.

Spread all of that out on top of the newspaper.

We will see how it does....

Thanks
Chris